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Interview with Virginia Knapper,
March 24, 1982
Sampler with picture
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Introductions and Memories of the House on North Fairfax Street
Pam Cressey: And then, what do you remember about your own house—your grandmother's house—what it looked like and that sort of thing. And, Leslie, could you draw a picture—like the outline of your grandmother's house—like where the chicken coop was? Virginia Knapper: Well, all of that was attached to the house. P.C.: If I gave you a piece of paper, could you just sketch it out or not? Virginia Knapper: Well, maybe you could help me. Here is the kitchen and a porch around the— P.C.: Across the wide part? Virginia Knapper: Uh hum—downstairs. The front door was here. The chicken house was here. P.C.: It ran along the short side—outside the kitchen? Virginia Knapper: Yeah, and outside the kitchen door, there was a shed. And that's where we kept our coal. P.C.: Okay, well that gives us a starting point. Virginia Knapper: There was one bedroom upstairs. P.C.: [Setting up video.] This is Virginia Thomas Knapper, and you were born in Alexandria and where were you born? Virginia Knapper: I was born on 911 North Fairfax Street. P.C.: Were you part of a large family? Virginia Knapper: My grandmother had three children—actually had four but the little boy passed a few months later. She had three daughters. The oldest was Janey and next was Addie and next was Emma, which was my mother. Janey had one boy which passed. My Aunt Addie had two children—a boy and a girl; the boy passed and the girl passed. My mother had three children—two boys and me, which I was included with the two boys and the boys passed. P.C.: So you became an only child then? Virginia Knapper: An only child. P.C.: Living with your mother together. Virginia Knapper: That's right. P.C.: And so all three of you lived in the same house then as you were growing up on Fairfax Street? Virginia Knapper: That's right. 
Knapper Family Photo
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Cross Canal and the Glass Factory
P.C.: I'd like to talk about that part of town. Was it called Cross Canal then? Virginia Knapper: That's right. Ever since I can remember, it was called Cross Canal. P.C.: Do you ever know why that name came in to use? Virginia Knapper: I don't know. P.C.: But everyone knew the canal was down there? Virginia Knapper: Yes. P.C.: Now looking at the old maps—we have a set of old Sanborn Insurance maps here and we were looking at the one from 1921. And the Old Dominion Glass Company was on the 900 block of Fairfax Street, which is where the Ramada Inn is today. Virginia Knapper: Not the glass factory. We worked in the glass factory. And it was on the other side of us. P.C.: The other side of you? Virginia Knapper: The glass factory was on the other side of the map. P.C.: Right. So you were in fact on the same city block that the canal cut through between you and the factory? Virginia Knapper: That's right. P.C.: Now how much of the canal could you see? Was it deep? Was there a big deep area between you and the factory? Virginia Knapper: Yes. P.C.: How did you get between your house and the factory then? Virginia Knapper: There was a bridge. That street—when it got to Montgomery Street, it kind of curved and that's where they put the bridge. At first it was just a foot bridge but they had some accidents—people falling off the bridge—so they put sides on the bridge. P.C.: On the bridge itself. So there were two bridges down here—to get across the canal? Virginia Knapper: No. Just the one. P.C.: Just the bridge. Then a footpath? Virginia Knapper: Yes. P.C.: How deep was the canal? Virginia Knapper: It was quite deep. P.C.: Like 10 feet maybe or 20 or 18 feet maybe? Virginia Knapper: I would say. P.C.: What was it filled with? Virginia Knapper: It was filled with anything; it was a dump then. P.C.: Did people dump their trash in there? Virginia Knapper: Um hum. P.C.: Was it in use at all when you were a very young child? Did you see water in it and did they use it to bring any type of goods in? Virginia Knapper: Well, I never seen them bring anything. My grandmother said there used to be barges that brought in coal. P.C.: She would have been right next to the canal. Virginia Knapper: That's correct. And the horses pulled the barges; walked up a row. There was a path made for the horses that the pulled the barges and at the end of the canal, there were locks and they had these gates. When the tide went out, they opened the gates because the water would fall and when the tide came in from the river, the gates were open and were flooded. That's what kept the water and the compartment certain. Now the water was in and the gates were closed. P.C.: That's what your grandmother told you about all of that but you were born too late to see any of that. Right? Virginia Knapper: Yes, but I can remember it hadn't completely dried up. P.C.: So, there was still water in there?
Extended Knapper Family
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Skating and Fishing on the Canal
Virginia Knapper: There was still water. Water used to come up about two feet. When it was freezing, we used to skate on it. Some of it was deeper and wouldn't freeze, we'd get our feet wet. So, we would come home cold. P.C.: So, how deep do you think the water was? Did it take very long for it to freeze? Virginia Knapper: That would all depend on how cold it got. P.C.: Yeah. A good chilly winter and you could go skating all the time. Virginia Knapper: That's right. P.C.: What kind of skates did you have? Virginia Knapper: Our feet. P.C.: Your feet? Virginia Knapper: We didn't have no ice skates. P.C.: So, you put your shoes on, go out there and it was that slippery? Virginia Knapper: Yeah, we used to do that right across in front of the school—our old school. We'd skate and we'd be late. We had a lot of good times skating down there. P.C.: Were there a lot of kids down there? Did you have a lot of friends. Virginia Knapper: From school. A lot of school children. P.C.: So, you all got together and we skating. What else did you do around the canal? Virginia Knapper: Nothing much I guess. P.C.: Did you ever walk down in it or play down in there? Virginia Knapper: At times we used to play on the river side. P.C.: On the river itself. Did you go fishing? Virginia Knapper: Oh heavens yes. P.C.: What kind of fish did you catch? Virginia Knapper: Well, we caught what we'd been told was some kind of catfish? P.C.: Any shad in there? Perch? Virginia Knapper: Yes, we used to catch perch—white perch. Shad's in deeper water. P.C.: What did you use for bait? Virginia Knapper: Earthworms. P.C.: Yeah, they go for that pretty well? Virginia Knapper: Yeah, that's all we used. P.C.: What did you make your poles out of? Virginia Knapper: Oh, tree branches.
Living on the Canal
P.C.: Were there many trees around Cross Canal? Virginia Knapper: Oh, nothing but trees. P.C.: Nothing but trees? Virginia Knapper: Fruit trees of all descriptions. P.C.: So there were gardens? Virginia Knapper: Gardens of all kinds. P.C.: So, you had your livestock there too? Chicken, hogs; did you ever have any cattle? Virginia Knapper: Hogs; but we never had any cattle. The Robinsons, which was a white family that lived on Montgomery Street right across the bridge from us—we used to trade chickens for milk. P.C.: So, that was your part of the cow? [laughter] Virginia Knapper: Right. When it was hog killing time, we'd share part of the hog with them and when they had their calves killed, they'd share with us. Fruits and vegetables were sent back and forth. P.C.: Did you feel you ate pretty well? Virginia Knapper: Yeah. P.C.: Did you ever go hungry? Virginia Knapper: No, never went hungry. P.C.: Did other people in town—were there other people who did go hungry? Were there just real poor people in town that just even didn't have food? Virginia Knapper: [indistinct response] P.C.: Was your part of town more like the country? Virginia Knapper: All country. P.C.: All country. It wasn't like the rest of the city. Virginia Knapper: It was dirt roads and foot paths. P.C.: So, just dirt roads. Virginia Knapper: That's right.
Going to the Stores in Alexandria
P.C.: What street—how far south did you have to keep coming down before you got into town—like Oronoco? Virginia Knapper: Let me see, no. I'd have to say it was Princess. P.C.: Princess Street. That's when you knew you were coming to town. Did you go to town very often? Virginia Knapper: We used to go out to Carper's Bakery. P.C.: And where was that? Virginia Knapper: Which was on Cameron Street—the lower end of Cameron Street. P.C.: Is that where you got most of your bread? Virginia Knapper: Sure. P.C.: Did you ever bake it at home though? Virginia Knapper: No, it was already baked bread—just four cents a loaf fresh from the bakery. P.C.: Did you know when it was going to come out—what time of day so you could get there? Virginia Knapper: They baked everyday and they worked 24 hours a day. They had a night shift and a day shift so there was always hot bread. P.C.: Was it good? Virginia Knapper: Grand; they supplied to other stores. P.C.: Oh, so you could go to other stores and get the same bread? Virginia Knapper: But not the same price. When we went to other stores, we paid more but when we'd go to our regular bakery, we paid 4 or 5 cents a loaf. P.C.: Do you remember who worked in the bakery? Did you know anybody there? Virginia Knapper: I couldn't think of anybody offhand and how come I needed to get acquainted with going to the bakery when my mother worked for a family that lived in the same block as the bakery was in. P.C.: Your mother did domestic work? Virginia Knapper: That's right. And I needed to go down there to her place and she'd give me money for bakery bread. I'd bring it back home; she was always working. P.C.: Sounds like you did a lot of walking? Virginia Knapper: We did a fair amount. P.C.: Did you ever go barefoot? Virginia Knapper: Quite a bit. P.C.: So you didn't wear out your shoes? Virginia Knapper: Couldn't afford that. P.C.: Where did you get your shoes though when you were ready to get a new pair? Virginia Knapper: We got our shoes at a store on the corner. There was a store—it started from a small store. P.C.: Was it the Hayman family? Virginia Knapper: Yeah. P.C.: His father? Virginia Knapper: That's right. A family store on Fairfax or Royal. P.C.: I talked to Mr. Hayman and he was telling me about his Dad's little store and he did say it was on Fairfax or Royal—one or the other. Virginia Knapper: Yes, I think that's right…Fairfax or Royal. We wore them on Sunday; we'd keep 'em on all day Sunday. And we wore them to school but when we came home from school, we took them off and went barefoot.
Young Knapper
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Going to School
P.C.: Did you go to school every day? Virginia Knapper: We'd better. P.C.: You had to go to school. Virginia Knapper: You had to. P.C.: And where was your school? Virginia Knapper: It was across the street. P.C.: On Alfred Street—the Howell Well School? Did you get a pretty good education there?
Emily Lomax Washington
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Early Employment
Virginia Knapper: Well, in those days, you could go through sixth grade but it was hard for a child unless their parents was in what we called pretty good standing. If you wanted a higher education, that school isn't necessary the highest you could get. You could go to Washington. P.C.: So, your parents had to have some money to send you to Washington? Plus they didn't need you at home to work. Virginia Knapper: That's right. I worked from the fourth grade to take my own self up. My mother and grandma and me took care of some children. Well, the other children had mothers and fathers they were able to have clothes that I didn't have and I wanted to look like the other children. So, I stopped going to school and worked. P.C.: And is that when you started picking peas over in Maryland? Virginia Knapper: No, I started by taking care of children in 611 Union Street—[indistinct]. I worked there a whole week. My grandmother thought I was going to school. I made a dollar and a half and I spent it. P.C.: No, what did she say when she found out? Pretty upset? Virginia Knapper: Whooo. She got in touch with mother. Mother was then living on the—[indistinct]. She only came in twice a week. In the meantime, I didn't know it but my school teacher had sent a note to my mother that I was absent. And when she came in, I was sitting there looking like a little church mouse—scared to death. [laughing] P.C.: [also laughing] Virginia Knapper: Well, it's the truth. P.C.: I can imagine the scare. Virginia Knapper: I was too scared to spend the money. I was becoming a young lady; I wanted all the clothes like the kids in school. The tears started falling before I could even get to tell her. She asked, "How much do you get a week?" "A dollar and a half a week." "Where is it?" "Right here." P.C.: You pulled it out of your pocket? Virginia Knapper: Yeah and I handed it to her. Then I told her I didn't want to go to school anymore; I wanted to work so I could have the fancy clothes like the other children like stockings for 25 cents a pair. So she carried me back to school. The principal, Miss Briggs, said she hated to see me leave school. I was right smart and if I'd have to say I had at that time a lovely penmanship. I could write [indistinct]. P.C.: So, when you were in fourth grade, you started taking care of other people's children? And was that a good decision? Virginia Knapper: Well, to me at that time, it was. P.C.: You just felt more comfortable with that decision. Virginia Knapper: There were quite a few of us girls that dropped out of school. Some came from large families and as they grew older, it would get more expensive. P.C.: Did most of the girls do domestic work? Virginia Knapper: Yes, they all started out that way.
Fish Town
P.C.: You could do that as a young girl but you could also do that as an adult woman too. Is that what most of the women did around there? What did the men do mostly? Virginia Knapper: Men worked in the freight yard and the acid plant and on the waterfront and in the glass factory. P.C.: So, were they a part of the fishing industry? Were ships still coming in then? So, they'd help unload? Yeah. All that sort of thing. Virginia Knapper: My grandmother used to work on the boat. She used to cut fish. P.C.: Um hum. That part of town—was part called Fish Town—where they cut all the fish? Virginia Knapper: Um hum. P.C.: Was that along Lee Street and around, say, Pendleton—that part of town? Virginia Knapper: Um hum; the water area. P.C.: All the water area. How far west—toward Washington Street—did Fish Town go? [long pause] like up to Royal Street? Virginia Knapper: Oh, it didn't go that far west. P.C.: So, it was really right on the water. Virginia Knapper: That's right. P.C.: Was it around the jail at all? Virginia Knapper: No, no. P.C.: Didn't go as far north as the jail. I was looking at the jail the other day. Not that you know anything about jail [laughter].But, it looked like there were two buildings that made up the jail. Virginia Knapper: That must be the new section.
More About the Canal and the Glass Factory
P.C.: Yeah, but the old one looks like it's still there over on St. Asaph Street—the brick one. That was there then. Yeah. The glass factory—that sat to the south of the canal—is that right? Virginia Knapper: Um hum. P.C.: Was any of the canal covered up, do you think, by the glass factory? Do you think they filled in part of the canal? Virginia Knapper: I think they had. Because I could come out of the glass factory and come up the hill to my grandma's house. P.C.: Oh, so you could just walk right across? Virginia Knapper: Um hum. P.C.: I have a picture of the canal that was taken before you were born. [showing photo] I think the glass factory would be up here. Say, you're standing at the glass factory and you're looking to the water and here's one of the canal gates—down at the lock part. This is the part that they called the basin but would have come up, I think, by your house. This is a map of the canal when it was first made and your house would be right here. So, there would be a skinny part that would be the lock and then a wide part that would be the basin. Could you see both the skinny and the wide part? Virginia Knapper: I can't exactly remember. P.C.: Do these stones look like the right kind of stones? Virginia Knapper: Uh huh. P.C.: A bunch of small ones that are kind of rectangular? And then this wide, flat area that you could say sit or walk on? Virginia Knapper: That's where the horses used to walk, Grandma used to say; that's where the horses pulled. That's the horse path. P.C.: That was the horse path. Then this looks like coal here. Virginia Knapper: It could be. P.C.: Like your grandmother said—the barges would be hauling coal. Virginia Knapper: Then grandmother said that some of the barges—the men hauling the coal barges got to know them so well, they used to pitch off coal to them. P.C.: That helped with the bill. Virginia Knapper: We never what it was to buy coal or wood. P.C.: You never had to buy coal or wood? Virginia Knapper: No, we used to get a shovel and go up and down the railroad tracks and pick up coal. Old Dominion railroad tracks used to run right in back of our place—between our place and Bryant's Mill. And you used to see us picking up coal laying on the tracks. P.C.: Coal would just fall off. Virginia Knapper: Yeah, and they would pitch off coal—big lumps and it would hit the ground and break up. And we'd pick it up and store it. P.C.: Um hum. Well, about how wide was the canal? Can you remember that—between you and the glass factory? Virginia Knapper: The canal was just about as wide as a street. P.C.: Oh, okay, maybe about 20 feet wide then. Let's look again at right behind your house—as you went to the water, You'd have to go over the railroad track… Virginia Knapper: Down a hill to the river.
Fish Houses
P.C.: Now, as you went down that hill and before you got to the river, was there anything down at the bottom of the hill? Was there any canal there? Virginia Knapper: No. P.C.: No canal anywhere around. Was there any building or was there just vacant land? Virginia Knapper: The only buildings down there was the fish houses. P.C.: Fish houses? Virginia Knapper: Now up toward the land, up the trail, up the waterfront, they used to do a lot of fishing up there. P.C.: There were wharfs; they were docks? Virginia Knapper: No, they used to fish by boats. They had boats. They had what-you-call trotlines. And these lines ran almost all the way across the river or halfway across. And they let those lines stay out all night and they'd get up early in the morning and go 2,3 or 4 men worked together. Some had to be on land and others taking up the fish lines. And they had some nets. And as they pulled the lines up with fish, they'd catch them. The fish would be kicking around for some time trying to get back in the river, so they had people with nets. P.C.: All the fish really came locally here? Virginia Knapper: Yes.
Living on the Water
P.C.: Now, we've talked about going toward the water from out your back door. We've talked about the glass factory right next door. Was the factory a pretty large building—a lot of people work in there? Virginia Knapper: Quite a few; they worked in a 24-hour shift. P.C.: They did? 24 hours a day, they were making glass. Then what we had also down on the river was a fertilizer plant and you were saying before was that it smelled a lot of the time. Virginia Knapper: Depending on the way the wind was blowing. P.C.: We have wondered about what kind of—what it was like to live on the water then—in terms of smells and sounds and things like that? Was it noisy down there—a lot of commotion? Virginia Knapper: Yeah and there were a lot of people living on the water; they had what-you-call arks. P.C.: Yeah, arks; they were water people then—lived right on the water. Was that right off from the fertilizer plant? Virginia Knapper: Some of them lived up above us toward Washington, some of them lived more towards town. P.C.: So, just all along up and down there? Did you know any of those people? Virginia Knapper: Yeah, I knew the Bryants and a white family that [indistinct]. Their sons had boats; they were big fishermen. P.C.: Well, were these people mostly fishermen or were they living out there because they didn't have to pay any rent? Virginia Knapper: No no, they were mostly fishermen. P.C.: Did they sometimes have houses in town too?
Living on North Fairfax Street
Virginia Knapper: [indistinct] I have my great aunt's picture. They lived on the same side of the street that she did. She lived on the level side and they lived on the hill side. P.C.: Now where was your great aunt's house? Here's your house at 911 Fairfax [pointing to map] Virginia Knapper: My great aunt lived on Fairfax between First and Second. P.C.: Okay. So, she was up in the next block then. In the middle of the block? Virginia Knapper: Um hum. P.C.: Okay. We, then one of these houses up here must be hers. Virginia Knapper: When the last of her children [indistinct]—when she passed, I lived there a long time. That's how I come into possession of my great aunt's picture and the bills and things where we bought the property. P.C.: This house was bought for her by the white family she worked for. Yeah. And do you have the receipts which we're going to take pictures of that sale. The other thing you have which is unique [laughter]….Why don't you tell us about this bottle.
Glass Pig from the Glass Factory
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Working at the Glass Factory and Across the River
Virginia Knapper: These are only made in special orders—mostly around Christmastime. They would start making beads and spoons and dippers and all kinds of things. P.C.: For gifts. Virginia Knapper: When glass was made, it was runny, soupy like dough that you would use for pancakes. P.C.: Yeah, thin. Virginia Knapper: They would mold it on a stick and when it came out [indistinct]. You could see the [most of this description is completely unclear]. P.C.: The lip of the bottle? Virginia Knapper: And they'd set it on something—it looked like tar paper. P.C.: Um hum—to dry? Virginia Knapper: Then they would put it on something like a shovel [indistinct] P.C.: That's quite a system. You remember everything about it too. Now what part did you play in the factory? Virginia Knapper: I said I was a mold girl once. And then, I was what you call a snapper. When the mold comes out, I would snap it off. P.C.: Snap it off. Do you know where this pig design—hog design—come from? Virginia Knapper: No. P.C.: Oh. How much do you think this design would have sold for? Virginia Knapper: They sold for about fifty cents. P.C.: About fifty cents? That was a pretty expensive item. Did you ever get to take any home with you? Virginia Knapper: Yeah. P.C.: Good. Virginia Knapper: If you weren't careful, you'd break them. If some broke, I'd put them [indistinct]. P.C.: This is very interesting. What was your salary when you were working there. Virginia Knapper: That was 3 or 4 dollars a week. P.C.: That was twice as much as you were making taking care of kids. So that was a big improvement. Virginia Knapper: Yeah. We got paid every two weeks and we rose from three dollars a week. Then by the time the factory closed down, I was making fifteen dollars a week. P.C.: Was that pretty good pay? Virginia Knapper: Yeah. P.C.: Was that because you had more responsibility or you'd just been there for a longer time? Virginia Knapper: The older ones were paid the most. P.C.: So when the glass factory closed down, what did you do for work then? Virginia Knapper: That's when I started work across the river [indistinct] P.C.: That's the story we had yesterday. Could you just go over that story for just a minute—when you started working across the river? Virginia Knapper: [Very slurred and indistinct]…Sometimes people come from across the town called the Berg. P.C.: The Berg? Virginia Knapper: People would come from down...out on our end to get across the river—quite a few of them. P.C.: Did a lot of people from the Berg—mostly Cross Canal and Berg people went across the river then? Virginia Knapper: Yeah. That's right.
Water Pumps and Wells in Alexandria
P.C.: We found some pictures the other day and these were in a ladies' scrapbook but we don't know exactly where they came from. But there were a lot of houses; I don't know if you remember them—around town—water pumps? Virginia Knapper: Yeah, we had one up on Royal Street. That's where we got our drinking water. P.C.: Royal and Montgomery? Virginia Knapper: No, on Royal and First. P.C.: Oh, Royal and First. So, you'd go pump your drinking water and then bring it back again? Virginia Knapper: A lot of people had wells but the water wasn't good to drink; and when the wells went dry, we'd pull water from the river. P.C.: How clean was the river water then? Virginia Knapper: Well, sometimes, it was so high—when it would rain, it was right clean and then sometimes if it wasn't so clean, we'd wait for it to settle. Of course, we'd have to make quite a few trips to fill up the deep tubs and barrels and things. P.C.: What type of wells were they? What did they look like? Did you ever see what they were made of? Were they brick wells? Virginia Knapper: [indistinct] brick wells. P.C.: Brick [tubs?] Did you ever see one of those wells being made? [long pause] Or were they all pretty well built by that time. Virginia Knapper: Oh built. Because the—family— P.C.: They had their own private well. Did anybody have running water—plumbing? Virginia Knapper: No, I don't think so.
Virginia Knapper and Family in 1982
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