Introduction
Interviewer:	... September the sixth, 2003. My name is Mary Baumann and today I'll be interviewing John W. and Mary S. Sullivan of Alexandria, Va. Let's first start with ... can you give me your name please?
Mary Sullivan:	Mary S. Sullivan
Interviewer:	And your name?
John Sullivan:	John W. Sullivan
Interviewer:	And what is your address?
John Sullivan:	214 East Alexandria Ave., Alexandria, Va.
Interviewer:	And Mary, what is your date of birth?
Mary Sullivan:	October 10, 1921.
John Sullivan:	March 2, 1913.
Interviewer:	And, how long have you lived in Alexandria? Mary?
Mary Sullivan:	I've been here fifty-seven years. We've been married for fifty-seven years.
Interviewer:	So you came here in ...?
Mary Sullivan:	I came to the Washington area in 1943.
Interviewer:	1943. And John?
John Sullivan:	Been here all my life.
Interviewer:	Lived here your whole life. And how long have you lived at this address?
Mary Sullivan:	85 years.
John Sullivan:	85 years.
Interviewer:	So you moved to this house when you were a young child?
Mary Sullivan:	About five years old.
Interviewer:	About five years old. OK. Great. Can you tell me the names of ... do you have children?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, two. Mary Elizabeth Ridge and Gregory Freeman Sullivan.
Interviewer:	And are they both still living here in this area?
Mary Sullivan:	No, Mary Elizabeth lives in Nokesville, Va, and our son lives in (inaudible) Va.
Interviewer:	And do you have other family still living in the area, as well?
Mary Sullivan:	He has a niece, that's all.
John Sullivan:	A niece, yes.
Mary Sullivan:	That's all.
Interviewer:	But your parents lived here their whole life?
John Sullivan:	Yes, that's right.

Growing up in Alexandria
Interviewer:	I think we'd like to start with, if you can tell me about growing up in the area, John. Can you tell me about the community when you were younger?
John Sullivan:	Back when I was younger, of course, it was small. I went to school in the area, that is elementary school.
Interviewer:	What school did you go to?
John Sullivan:	I guess George ...
Mary Sullivan:	It was George Mason at that time (inaudible) elementary school.
John Sullivan:	Yes, George Mason. And I guess that's about it.
Interviewer:	What can you tell me about your playmates, what you did as a kid?
Mary Sullivan:	The neighborhood was dirt roads out here.
Interviewer:	Was it dirt roads?
John Sullivan:	Dirt roads. We played football, I guess. And sometimes, skate on the sidewalk, on the concrete walkway.
Interviewer:	Roller skating?
John Sullivan:	Yes, roller skating. So I guess that's about it.
Interviewer:	Any names of friends that you remember?
John Sullivan:	I can't remember.
Mary Sullivan:	Who was the boy that you were skating with when he broke his ... ?
John Sullivan:	Oh, that was ...
Mary Sullivan:	You don't know his name either.
Interviewer:	What had happened?
John Sullivan:	He fell and broke his wrist and I took him to the Alexandria Hospital.
Interviewer:	How old were you?
John Sullivan:	Herbert, Herbert Mundy.
Mary Sullivan:	Mundy.
John Sullivan:	Herbert Mundy.
John Sullivan:	I guess I was like ...
Mary Sullivan:	Fifteen or sixteen.
John Sullivan:	Pretty close, the same.
Interviewer:	And you were roller skating on the sidewalk?
John Sullivan:	Yes, he fell and I took it.
Interviewer:	Oh, wow. That's a memorable experience

The Del Ray Community
Interviewer:	Well, we are interested in learning about, as much as we can, about the Del Ray community. If you remember businesses, maybe on Mt. Vernon Ave.?
Mary Sullivan:	Oh, yes. The dimestore used to be Ben Franklin dimestore. And there were bakeries there. And High's Ice Cream store. And Baumann's, I mean, yes, Baumann's Drugstore.
John Sullivan:	Drugstore.
Mary Sullivan:	And Acme market. And Safeway was here on the corner. And the music store, moved into the old Safe.... After Safeway left, they moved into the Safeway building. And then of course Esso Service Station, which you dealt with all the time.
John Sullivan:	On the corner.
Mary Sullivan:	Of course the Post Office has been there all the time. Of course, the bank, Burke and Herbert, has been here for a long time on Monroe Ave. - that was there. And Fannon's Oil. The Fannon home used to be on Mount Vernon Ave. that owned the oil company. There was another drugstore there too on the other, opposite side of (inaudible) but they didn't ... I don't remember the name. Baumann's was our ...
John Sullivan:	Where we went, yes.
Mary Sullivan:	We didn't have Peoples' at the time, or CVS.
John Sullivan:	That about covers it.
Interviewer:	Those were all along Mt. Vernon Ave?
John Sullivan:	Of course, they are all gone now though.
Interviewer:	Right. All of those were ...
John Sullivan:	Replaced by others.
Mary Sullivan:	I can't remember eating, any eating places on Mt. Vernon Avenue. There's a lot now. There's an awful lot.
John Sullivan:	No.
Interviewer:	Right, now there is. Well, let's talk about .... John, you might remember this, when the Town of Potomac had been annexed into the City of Alexandria? Is there anything that you can say about that, or whether there was a differentiation between the two areas?
John Sullivan:	No, ...
Mary Sullivan:	I don't remember. I remember when it was annexed because Mr. Fulton was the mayor of Potomac. There used to be the firehouse there and that was the entertainment for the City of Potomac. Everything met there at the firehouse upstairs. Even our church, Del Ray Baptist Church at that time, used to have our Sunday School classes over in the firehouse. Or, part of them, at least, over there.
Interviewer:	And when was this?
Mary Sullivan:	1946 and '47. Well now, the, I guess Potomac, though, the City of Potomac, had gone by that time. I don't remember the exact dates when that was annexed to the City.
Interviewer:	I think it was in the '30's.
Mary Sullivan:	Late '30's.
John Sullivan:	It was, yes.
Interviewer:	Do you have any recollection of that being a difficult decision?
Mary Sullivan:	I don't remember it. No, because I think I was, no, I guess I wasn't here at that time. But I've heard them talk about it. You know, there's a history, there's a book that was written on the history of Potomac and the Del Ray area. I don't know whether you have a copy of that or not.
Interviewer:	I've read some of the history. That's sort of why I was asking, because I know that there's ....
Mary Sullivan:	I don't remember any controversy, any big controversy, about anything.
John Sullivan:	No, I don't think there was.
Interviewer:	Right.

Transportation
Interviewer:	Let me ask you about the transportation from ...
John Sullivan:	Washington?
Interviewer:	Yes, into Washington.
John Sullivan:	Back then there was a streetcar line down here. It went all the way, I think, to Mt. Vernon wasn't it?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, it went to Mount Vernon.
John Sullivan:	It went through Alexandria, up Commonwealth Ave into D.C. And it went to, I think it got off at 12th St. and came back the same way.
Interviewer:	How long did it take for the trip, do you remember?
John Sullivan:	I'd say about half-hour.
Interviewer:	About a half-hour?
John Sullivan:	It depends (inaudible) stops.
Interviewer:	Stops
John Sullivan:	On average, half an hour.
Mary Sullivan:	I don't remember the streetcars.
Interviewer:	Right, they were gone by the time you came.
Mary Sullivan:	Yes.
Interviewer:	Do you remember how much it cost?
John Sullivan:	I think it was a dime.
Interviewer:	A dime?
John Sullivan:	I think it was a dime.
Interviewer:	Did you take it every day?
John Sullivan:	Yes, at that time I did - 'til the bus. Then I took the bus. I used to catch the bus right down here on Monroe Ave. Yes, Monroe Ave.
Interviewer:	And did you start taking the bus because there was no longer the trolley?
John Sullivan:	Yes. They went out.
Interviewer:	Do you know why they stopped?
John Sullivan:	They thought the busses were more convenient.
Interviewer:	More convenient?
John Sullivan:	They were taking up a lot of space on Commonwealth Ave. and through Del Ray and all that, which wasn't necessary.
Interviewer:	The tracks and things.
John Sullivan:	The bus was just like it is today. Like the bus today. Same thing.
Interviewer:	So it was considered more convenient?
John Sullivan:	Bus on Mt. Vernon Ave., right into D.C., Metro.
Interviewer:	Yes, and the Metro. What can you tell me about the Potomac Yards and the railroad community?
Mary Sullivan:	Oh, I remember that real well because most everybody in this area, men, worked at the railroad. And we could hear the big ... hear the trains, it was between the north and the south was the freight yard. And they had the hump, what they called the hump. The trains would come up and you could hear them bump. All during the night you'd hear them change and bump because of the hump there. It was quite a large .... Well, it was the largest railroad between the north and the south. Of course, when of course, new development has come over there. It was quite a time during the change (inaudible) trains and things taken out.
Interviewer:	You mean when it closed?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, when it began to close down. Of course, we knew some of the people who worked over there. We knew the manager, the station manager, or the yardmaster. And we knew his secretary real well. It was quite a change for them too.
Interviewer:	So, were a lot of the people that lived in this community working at the ...?
Mary Sullivan:	Oh yes.
John Sullivan:	Most of the men, yes.
Mary Sullivan:	Mr (audible) across the street was a plumber for them. He worked on the plumbing, trains and stuff. He was about one of the last workers to leave.
John Sullivan:	Yes, he was.
Mary Sullivan:	I think he ...
Interviewer:	And when did they close all that?
Mary Sullivan:	I'm not really sure the exact dates. It had to be in the '40's.
John Sullivan:	Late 40's.
Mary Sullivan:	It might have been the early 50's. I'm not sure.
John Sullivan:	Late '40's at least.
Interviewer:	At least in the late '40's. And the people then, who had been working there? Did they move out of the community?
John Sullivan:	Some did.
Mary Sullivan:	But most of them probably were retired people. Most of them, because I think that was probably one of the things - they did not have the younger men coming in to work.
Interviewer:	Part of the reason why.
Mary Sullivan:	I have the feeling maybe that was it. But I know most of the men that .... Now Mr. Arnold retired from there. And, his friend, the one who lived up on King St., I forget what his name was. He was working. He retired at the same time. That was a busy place at one time.
John Sullivan:	That was a ... place, where they would exchange trains, freight trains going south.
Interviewer:	Now before we move over to a different topic, I wanted to ask you, speaking back on the trolleys, do you remember what the stations looked like, or the stops where you would stop and they would pick you up?
John Sullivan:	The one down here was just a little small, oh, kind of thing, very little small, what would you say?
Interviewer:	Like a three sided type of ... with an overhang?
John Sullivan:	Yes, just the overhang. The one done to Rosemont the same way. And on down into Alexandria, down King St.
Interviewer:	Most of them were small like that?
John Sullivan:	Very small. Yes.
Mary Sullivan:	It's too bad. It seems to me it would be so convenient to go to Mt. Vernon ....
John Sullivan:	Couldn't do it now though.
Interviewer:	Couldn't put it back together at this point. That's interesting because they don't have any pictures of the stations. So we wondered if you could visually remember what they look like...

Raising Children in Alexandria
Interviewer:	Let me have you, if you could tell me a little bit about raising your children in this area, in the neighborhood.
Mary Sullivan:	They went to Mt. Vernon School, both of them. Both of them finished GW High School up here. Of course, they could walk right over there. And they walked. Well, Greg, after he was, you know, got up to fifth or sixth grade, he would walk home. But other times, I took Mary Elizabeth. I took them to school and would pick them up. But after he became in the sixth or seventh grade, he wanted to walk home with the other boys. But then, when they went into high school, now, Mary Elizabeth participated with the little, with the children's part of the Saturday morning, something to do with the Little Theater, acting. She was active in that. They had a recreation part. It came under Recreation Department. And then Greg played basketball and football for the high school. Then he left. I mean when he finished there, he went to VPI and finished there. He ended with a civil engineering degree. And Mary Elizabeth did not want to go to college. She finished there then she went into.... She worked on the school program here in the school and she was .... What did she do? She worked at the hospital as a, a cardiogram, cardiogram for the hospital. And then she married and lived here for a while. And then they moved to Manassas. And they moved to Nokesville. Of course, Greg, as I said, finished VPI, and came back to Hampton, Va. and worked there. Then he finally moved up to Williamsburg. He works for NASA now.
Interviewer:	And you were both working while you were raising your children?
John Sullivan:	Yes.
Mary Sullivan:	Yes. No, I did not start to work until Greg start to school. After he started school, then I started in as a kindergarten teacher. Then I could be home when he got home in the afternoon. So, no, I did not go to work until he ....
Interviewer:	And was (sic) the neighborhood families like your age with children?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, I had a friend who lived on Glendale and we rolled our babies together every day no matter how cold it was. And then Greg had a lot of friends, boys, growing up in the neighborhood. Yes, it was a good neighborhood.
Interviewer:	Good community. Do you remember the names of any of the neighbors?
Mary Sullivan:	The Mattis boys. Tim Mattis lived right across the street. Paul Allen lived in Del Ray. He and Greg were real good friends. They still are close friends. They've known each other like they were brothers. Of course, in the church there were a lot of children that he was with. But then most of the children in the church were not. See, we had a divided area. Hammond High School and, of course, TC (Williams) wasn't at that time. And some of them lived down in the Ft. Hunt area went to school. The Norton children went there, but they were all still good friends. Mary Elizabeth had quite a few girl friends. The Robinson girls. The (inaudible) girl. And Emma Sue. Gwen. There's a lot of girls at that time. We always had birthday parties for them. Whenever their birthday, we always had a birthday party for them.
Interviewer:	What kids of things did you do at the birthday parties?
Mary Sullivan:	Usually it was just with the toymakers, and the hats, and, you know, just ...
Interviewer:	Play games?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, games, just entertainment. And then, of course, we'd go on a lot of picnics. The neighborhood, we'd get together. We'd have picnics at Ft. Ward or on the Boulevard. Did a lot of that. And we had a good time. And we'd go to the beach. That was one thing. And we'd go to South Carolina. My children spent nearly every summer with my parents on the farm. They loved that. When school was out, usually, if we didn't take them, my sister and her husband would come for them. And they'd stay there until we would go pick them up sometime in August. They learned a lot. A lot of experiences there.

Employment
Interviewer:	Why don't I have Mary tell, tell me about your, what ... where you worked you have worked over the years?
Mary Sullivan:	I enlisted in the Navy in 1942 and was called up in '43 and I went to Oklahoma. Well I went to Hunter College for my boot training. Went to Oklahoma A&M College. Left New York in March and went to Oklahoma and stayed there until July and came back here to .... Well, I really came to Anacostia at that time, the receiving station. Then we went to California Farms, which is now part of Arlington Cemetery. As soon as they got the barracks finished, we went there. I stayed in the barracks there until, I believe it was in September, then they moved the older ones. We moved out. Then, from then on, I lived out on my own, where I wanted to live. One friend and I had an apartment together. Three of the girls had an apartment together.
Interviewer:	Was that in this area?
Mary Sullivan:	Over on Glendale Ave. And then we ... Then after, well one of them was discharged for medical reasons. And the other one, I believe she went, was transferred some place. I stayed here. I went to Arlington then. Got a room there. And then I married in 1946. And then I stayed in for two years after I was married. And then when I came out, of course I had my children. And then I went back to work as a kindergarten teacher and director. And then I left.
Interviewer:	Where was that?
Mary Sullivan:	Del Ray Baptist Church.
Interviewer:	Del Ray Baptist.
Mary Sullivan:	Right up here on Russell Rd. And then I decided I had just about burned out ... And so then the church office wanted me to work there. Then I worked in the church office. I left there and that's when I quit working.
Interviewer:	How long? You worked there until what ...?
Mary Sullivan:	1975, I believe it was. I worked eight years in the school and I worked eight years, I think, in the church office. I think that was it.
Interviewer:	And John, tell me what your work experience ... where did you work?
John Sullivan:	I applied for the FBI and I worked there for forty-two years and four months. And that's the only place I worked.
Interviewer:	And where did you go to school?
John Sullivan:	Well, I went to ... you mean high school?
Interviewer:	Well, high school or college.
John Sullivan:	George Washington University Law School.
Interviewer:	You went to George Washington. Where did you go to high school?
John Sullivan:	I finished high school. I started here, but I got a job with the FBI and I went to Eastern High School, wasn't it?
Mary Sullivan:	I think it was Eastern.
John Sullivan:	Eastern High School in D.C. and finished over there. And I went to George Washington University Law School.
Interviewer:	Did you get your undergrad at George Washington?
John Sullivan:	Yes. I got my LLB.
Mary Sullivan:	NPL.
John Sullivan:	NPL
Mary Sullivan:	LLB
John Sullivan:	LLB
Interviewer:	And you were working for the FBI?
John Sullivan:	Yes.
Interviewer:	at the time ...
John Sullivan:	Enrolled at nighttime.
Interviewer:	So that was the only place that you worked? Now how many years was that again?
John Sullivan:	Forty-two years and four months. It's written on that thing right up there.
Interviewer:	Oh, a plaque up there. Great.
John Sullivan:	There's a plaque up there, FBI. They gave me that when I retired.
Interviewer:	Is there anything you can share with me about your work, your experience?
John Sullivan:	With the FBI?
Interviewer:	Yes.
John Sullivan:	Mostly it was stuff you couldn't talk about.
Interviewer:	Right.
John Sullivan:	Most of it was checking people for jobs. And anything to do with ....
Mary Sullivan:	Immigration.
John Sullivan:	Immigration. Various things like that.
Mary Sullivan:	Embassies. You were involved with the embassies.
John Sullivan:	Embassies, yes.
Interviewer:	And tell me about your military experience?
John Sullivan:	Military. I was in the Army as a Lieutenant Colonel. I was in military intelligence.
Interviewer:	What years?
John Sullivan:	When was it Mary?
Mary Sullivan:	'48. Let's see. You stayed in the reserves after you came out. You came out ...
John Sullivan:	I stayed with them 27 years.
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, I think you came out in '52. After the Korean War.
John Sullivan:	Yes, that's right, it was.
Mary Sullivan:	You stayed in the Reserves.
John Sullivan:	I retired.
Mary Sullivan:	But you went ...Ft. McHenry, I mean, Ft. ...
John Sullivan:	Fort ?
Mary Sullivan:	In Maryland.
John Sullivan:	Ft. Meade.
Mary Sullivan:	Ft. Meade, you were stationed at Ft. Meade, in intelligence.
John Sullivan:	And that's about it.

Church Community
Interviewer:	Why don't we have you tell us about the church, your church involvement over the years? Now, and just over the years.
Mary Sullivan:	I've always been ... I'm assistant Sunday School teacher now. And I'm in the Women's Missionary Union. And I support the Wednesday night dinners that we have. Any church activities that I can carry on, mission work, I do that.
Interviewer:	And have you been involved in the church community the whole time you've been living here?
Mary Sullivan:	Ever since I was at Del Ray. I worked there. I was on different committees: flower committees, hostess committee. I directed weddings there. You know, whatever needed to be done that I was capable to do, I did.
Interviewer:	Has that community changed much over the years?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes.
John Sullivan:	Yes.
Interviewer:	Tell me about that.
Mary Sullivan:	The Del Ray church is almost completely gone out. There's very few of our older members there left because of different changes in pastors and different things. At the time that I was there, we had about 500 active members attending. Then, of course, it began to just dwindle down. Then we had some pastors who came in that they just simply did not meet the peoples' desires. And we, everybody just left. There just things that they thought that we did not ... (inaudible). Now we have been at the Baptist Temple. For fourteen years, we've been there. I've been an associate Sunday School teacher there. Been in WMU ever since I've been there. I've been on different commissions there. Of course, our church is not a large church; it's a small church.
Interviewer:	Any names of families that you remember through the church over the years?
Mary Sullivan:	Oh yes. There's a lot. All those people have passed on. We were talking the other day about ... last week at Wheatley Funeral Home. And the girl there, she said, "Do you remember (inaudible) ?" She said, "Thirty years ago today was our anniversary. You decorated the church for us and how beautiful it was." She says, "We'll never forget that." Now, like, her father's passed away. And they were our friends. And Mrs. Austin which (sic) used to be one our organists. Mrs. (inaudible) at the church hall. Those women are gone. Mary (inaudible) was a wonderful worker. All those people. So very few of our age group, even, in fact, they have either retired or moved away from here. We haven't got too many. We have a friend in Florida who comes back. She's a widow; well, she's remarried, but her husband died. Then the (inaudible), they are gone. The Fraziers are gone - which were all our age group. So we are among the oldest. We've only got about .....the Gerharts, he's gone. We have very really limited number now of our friends at that church. Now we have quite a few friends down here, but many of those are widows too. In my Sunday School class I think there's only ... we have 14 or 15 women. And I think there's 3 or 4 of us the only ones that have husbands. And they have died since we have known them. They're all our age group. When you get to the eighties and on up it begins to take its toll.
Interviewer:	Tell me what you remember about these people and the time that you spent with them.
Mary Sullivan:	You mean at the church?
Interviewer:	Yes, with the church.
Mary Sullivan:	We had a lot of get-togethers when we were at Del Ray. That was a very active church. We had picnics. We had Wednesday night dinner every Wednesday night. And we always had a Bible study, and music. And then of course, as I said, we had WMU. We made cancer pads. We did a lot of mission work. We'd sponsor different organizations, mission projects. We did that, and then of course the same thing at this church too because it is pretty much the same thing, that we sponsor things. And Bible, Vacation Bible School was one our big things. This year we had Bible School at our church. Our Sunday School class was asked to furnish the refreshments one night. We furnished peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, and the next night we had macaroni and cheese, and sandwiches for the children who didn't want that. And then, the next night we had egg salad, and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, and pizza. And our class ... so we did that.
Interviewer:	And did your children attend the Vacation Bible School too, when they were younger?
Mary Sullivan:	Oh yes, sure.
Interviewer:	And did you teach?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, I was always working. I always worked in the junior department. I mean beginners' department, and junior department in church and Sunday School. I've always worked with the children.
Interviewer:	And, so, the Vacation Bible School - tell me about how ...
Mary Sullivan:	It was just for the summer. And we used to have at least 100 to 125 children would come. It was divided up into different age groups. And they had Bible study, crafts work, outside play, and refreshments. That was quite a time for all the children. They loved Vacation Bible School.
Interviewer:	And that was in the morning? What time?
Mary Sullivan:	Started at nine o'clock and go until, I believe, twelve. Just about three hours.
Interviewer:	For the whole summer?
Mary Sullivan:	No, just for two weeks.
Interviewer:	For two weeks. OK.
Mary Sullivan:	People would take vacations to work for Bible School because it was a big thing.
Interviewer:	It was something that everybody participated in.
Mary Sullivan:	Everybody looked forward to it. Yes, it was quite a thing.
John Sullivan:	Sure was.
Mary Sullivan:	Men would take off. One man would bring a motor. The children would take the motor apart. Somebody'd bring woodwork and they would work with that. And then have all kinds of paintings, craft works, shells, and tile work. It was a well planned out program. Then we had GA, or Girls Auxiliary organization, which we used to ... they would memorize so many verses. And they went up by steps. And then when they became a queen they got to have a big party. They got long dresses with the halos and all. It was quite a thing for the young women.
Interviewer:	What was the age? What was their age group?
Mary Sullivan:	Probably nine to .... Well, we could go seventeen. I think the girls went to seventeen, then they reached the queen.
Interviewer:	And this was a very special ....
Mary Sullivan:	Oh, very special. That was quite an activity. But now they don't have it anymore. Some of the churches do, but none in this area that I know of have Girls Auxiliary anymore.

Visiting Washington, D. C.
Interviewer:	What can you tell me about visits to, let's start with Washington, D.C. area? Like, how often? I know you guys went in there, would go to work. But did you go there for any other purposes?
Mary Sullivan:	We used to go to DA, to the Constitution Hall every Sunday afternoon for the music concert.
Interviewer:	DAR?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes. And we always We had company. We always had company - every summer. Relatives, cousins, would come and D.C. was a major thing. You would take them on a tour of D.C. And my children used to get so tired. They'd say - (The school would take a trip.) - "I've been there. I don't want to go back. I've been there many times." They went to all -the Capitol, the museums, the libraries, and Archives, ...
John Sullivan:	Congress.
Mary Sullivan:	Congress. One summer we took our vacation, went over when John F., Jimmy Hoffa was being tried. We went over that summer and spent the whole two weeks at the Senate, over there on the trial of Jimmy Hoffa. And also, we had pictures made. Greg has those. It was quite interesting.
Interviewer:	That's a vacation!
Mary Sullivan:	It was! It was something different. That summer we just said, "We're going to stay at home this summer." And the children didn't get to go to anything. Who was the senator that gave Greg the pencils - he's still got them - that they used to record? He came down the elevator. He was from Arkansas. McClellan?
John Sullivan:	Yes, I think so.
Mary Sullivan:	I believe it was. He gave Greg pencils that he had used that day to write notes and things.
Interviewer:	And how old was your son at the time?
Mary Sullivan:	He was probably ten or eleven. He wasn't any older than that. He was just old enough to take an interest in that, you know, to know what was going on.
Interviewer:	And you could just go in there and watch?
Mary Sullivan:	Sure.
Interviewer:	There's no trouble with that?
Mary Sullivan:	No. And Jackie Kennedy and all. That was the first - I believe that was ... was that the year that they were married? I believe that was the year she lost her first child. Anyway, she was there. We saw many, many of all the people, the dignitaries that came. We got to see all of them. That was quite interesting. And of course, we visited the, the, the flower place.
Interviewer:	The Botanical Gardens?
Mary Sullivan:	The Botanical Gardens. Always beautiful. We had to go there. Then we visited the lily, I mean the water pond out in University of Maryland, near the University of Maryland. We've been there. We've taken in all the sites, I guess, to see in D.C.
John Sullivan:	We've seen it all.
Mary Sullivan:	We've been on the White House tours. We've been there for the Christmas. (inaudible) And the Christmas trees, when they had them on the grounds. We always went to see those. And of course, when the department stores were in D.C. - Kann's, and Landsburghs, and Hechts - and they always had the beautiful window, Christmas things. That was quite a treat always to go there to see those (inaudible).
Interviewer:	You would go into D.C.?

Historical Events
Mary Sullivan:	Oh yes, we'd always go. We were, on the day that John Kennedy, Kennedy was brought back, we were over there to see the, bring the body back to the White House. We were on Pennsylvania Ave. when we heard. What was the guy that was shot? We were standing over there at the .... , right in front of - Willard Hotel. Somebody had a radio and they said that .... Oh, what was the guy who ...?
Interviewer:	Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, they said, "Harvey Oswald has been short." We heard that while we were standing there waiting for Kennedy's (inaudible) to come to the White House.
Mary Sullivan:	Of course, I remember when Roosevelt's body was brought back. I was going to South Carolina that weekend. In Danville, we put sidetrack for the train to come by. Of course, they had the doors open so you could see the casket. The bell was ringing. I told someone back here awhile (inaudible).
John Sullivan:	Sure did.
Mary Sullivan:	I think that we have had a lot of interesting things that have happened.
John Sullivan:	Sure have.
Interviewer:	Let me take this moment to switch the tape over and then we'll continue.
Mary Sullivan:	We've been to Harper's Ferry.
Interviewer:	My goodness.
Mary Sullivan:	And our home was always a gathering place for young people, it seemed, on Sunday. We had a big farm and my father always raised .... We raised peanuts. We made our own syrup. He had a corn mill. We ground meal and flour. We had everything. We never wanted for anything. But Sunday afternoon we'd even make molasses candy. And my mother, as soon as she got through dinner, always put in a great big pan of peanuts to parch, parched peanuts. And the young people'd come in and we'd all .... We went in the living room and we had a big fireplace, and we'd just sing and just have a really good time. We didn't have a radio at that time. But my uncle across the road from us did. And he came over and told us that Pearl Harbor had been bombed. All these young men jumped up and said, "I'm going. I'm going. I'm going to get them. I'm going to get them." They were just real anxious to go. So that's what I remember (inaudible).
Interviewer:	Do you remember that day, John?
John Sullivan:	Oh, yes. Oh, sure.
Mary Sullivan:	You were at, your mother. Let me see, I've heard your mother tell, you were at some Gold Star Mother meeting with your mother. You were called. They called and all FBI personnel had to go in. Were you at Arlington Cemetery? I can't remember. I've heard her tell about it.
John Sullivan:	I don't remember, but I know it happened.
Mary Sullivan:	Of course we remember September 11 too. I remember that very well. Because we heard the bomb when it hit the Pentagon.
Interviewer:	You could hear it?
Mary Sullivan:	Oh, yes, we could hear it. We had the back door open. We were getting ready to go to a dental appointment.
John Sullivan:	Smoke and fire.
Mary Sullivan:	We had watched the World Trade thing, you know. And all of sudden here was this terrible .... It seemed like the earth underground just shook. And I said, "Oh, my God, they've bombed the White House." That was my first thought. Because it was the same direction. Of course in a few minutes they said that it was the Pentagon and by that time of course, the smoke was boiling up. We could see just then. We could hear the sirens even. And so then we thought, "Should we go to our dental appointment?" Because he was in a highrise building and they said, "Don't, get out of high rise buildings." So we said, "It's so late, we'll go ahead." And so, when we went, we had to go south here to Alexandria, and the traffic was just wild. I've just never seen people ... just wild. And so when we got down there and I said to the girls in the office, I said to Dr. (inaudible), "The traffic is just terrible." And I said, "People are just like they're wild." And he came in to the receptionist and he says, "Call everybody and cancel every appointment after this one." He said, "We're canceling everything after these people." And you had gone into the technician to clean your teeth. He said, "Come on in Mary. I'm going to clean your teeth and we'll get everybody out of here." So then, when we came home, of course all the roads were just clogged, people trying to get home.
Interviewer:	Did it take you a really long time then?
Mary Sullivan:	Oh, yes.
John Sullivan:	Quite a while.
Mary Sullivan:	It was worse than any rush hour. People were just scurrying. They were just so frightened.

Remembering Old Town Alexandria and Del Ray
Interviewer:	Well, lets move into .... I spoke to you a little while ago about your visits into the D.C. area. Did you travel into, like what we would call now Old Town Alexandria frequently? And what would be your reasons?
Mary Sullivan:	The stores. We had Penny's down there. We had ... oh, there a lot of ... There's Penny's and Hayman's. Wonderful dress store. Just beautiful store. Of course we had the Scotch Shop in Alex, in Del Ray at that time too. But the Hayman's - you could go in and you said, "I need a dress for this occasion." They could tell you just pretty much what you wanted.
Interviewer:	Shopping.
John Sullivan:	Oh, yes. Oh, sure.
Mary Sullivan:	The great thing was to go down on Saturday night and sit and just watch people on King St. That was just the thing for people. We had a Mr. MacDonald, one of our old policemen, he was an older man. I mean an older man. That was when the first short shorts came out first. And he says, "I tell you, they don't wear enough clothing to (inaudible) a dust rag."
Interviewer:	So it was people watching!
Mary Sullivan:	Oh, yes, everybody was watching. That was quite a thing. (inaudible) And we'd go to the train station and watch the trains go through on Saturday afternoon. That was another big thing too, because there were so many trains come through. That whole hillside of the train, of the station there people would come with their children and sit and watch the trains go through.
John Sullivan:	That's right.
Interviewer:	And was that area always referred to as Old Town, or what did you refer to it as? King Street?
Mary Sullivan:	Alexandria.
Interviewer:	Just Alexandria.
John Sullivan:	Just Alexandria. It wasn't exactly Old Town. It was just Alexandria.
Interviewer:	That was Alexandria.
Mary Sullivan:	At that time. Because your sister lived down on Royal St. Of course, it was just Royal St., Alexandria.
Interviewer:	But now this whole area... I guess, when you say Alexandria you have to specify ...
Mary Sullivan:	Now, we're not ... Some people will say, they'll advertise the house as being in Old Town. We're not in Old Town as such. I refer to it, I think of Old Town as King St. and those older homes near the river. To me, that's Old Town.
Interviewer:	And do you still think of this area as Del Ray then, and Rosemont.
Mary Sullivan:	It's still classified as Del Ray and Rosemont.
Interviewer:	Right. Let's see. Let me ask you, when you think of, thinking of the Del Ray area again, what kind of landmarks do you think about, places that are, would be landmarks?
Mary Sullivan:	Well, what used to be the Scotch Shop now is an antique shop. No, ...
John Sullivan:	It's a restaurant now.
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, I think it is a restaurant. Of course our church, Del Ray Church, was on Del Ray Avenue. It was sold and then we moved up on to West Del Ray Avenue. We were on the east and we moved. And then we moved from Del Ray up on to Russell Rd., to the bigger church there. Of course, those were landmarks. As I said, Baumann's Drug Store was a landmark. Of course, the firehouse is still there. I remember those. There used to be Ben Franklin dime store. And there was a hardware store. But all that is gone. I think where the dime store was, there is a little church there now, in that building.
Interviewer:	But the buildings are still there?
Mary Sullivan:	Oh they are still there. And Dr. ... who was the dentist who had an office up there? There were two dentists. When I first came here he was in ... Dr. Horn(inaudible) had a ... was on Mt. Vernon Ave. He was our doctor. Of course, all that has all been gone for years and years. There was a hat shop used to be up there. Oh yes, the theater there.
John Sullivan:	Oh yes, the Palm Theater.
Mary Sullivan:	The Palm Theater.
John Sullivan:	Was next to ...
Interviewer:	Do you remember going there?
John Sullivan:	Yes.
Mary Sullivan:	Five cents an afternoon show.
John Sullivan:	Five cents a show, yes. Long time ago.
Interviewer:	What kind of shows?
John Sullivan:	Most any movie they had.
Mary Sullivan:	It was silent though. Because (inaudible), his friend, played piano for the music at that time. I've heard her say she played piano, music. Of course, I never went there.
Interviewer:	This was beforehand. What can you tell me about the volunteer fire department, and the firehouse community? I know that that was the center of ...
Mary Sullivan:	... Sidney (inaudible) was Chief of Fire there. They used to have oyster dinners. They used to have .... Our church, I think our church at that time used to have oyster dinners for to help raise money for the firehouse. The women of the church would do it. They were always helpful. I mean the firemen, even today, when I would need a smoke detector battery. I can't .... The last time I broke my wrist in April a year ago and I couldn't get up to change the smoke detector. And I called the fireman to come do it. In our civic association they volunteer to do that. And so I called them and they said they'd be down. So here comes a fire truck with four firemen on it to change a battery! They're helpful with anything, they are. And the Rescue Squad is wonderful. The rescue here, if you call them, they are just wonderful. I even called Ned if I need something. I was getting ready to shovel some, to move some topsoil when I fell and broke my wrist. And, of course, Mr. Sullivan couldn't do it. And so I thought, "Who in the world can I call?" I called a couple of places and there is nobody to do it. So I thought, "I know the fireman do this." And I called there, and this man said, " I don't have anybody here right now to do it. But I'll get you someone." So I had three calls within fifteen minutes of people wanting to come and do it. So a man came the next morning, and what was it? $5 an hour, I think. "I'll be there as soon as I come off my shift at seven o'clock." That morning he was here. Then he got several jobs from my telling other people about him. The firemen are excellent help. They are just real good. We have a good fire department. We have a good police department. I think they used to hold dances up there too, at the firehouse, upstairs. Now, I'm not sure. We didn't attend any of them.
John Sullivan:	They could have. I don't remember.
Mary Sullivan:	Probably did.
John Sullivan:	They probably did.

Family History
Interviewer:	John, did your parents build this house? Do you know when this house was built?
John Sullivan:	No, both houses ...
Mary Sullivan:	... built at the same time. And I can't remember the man. I've heard Mrs. Sullivan say a few times who built it. But it was built in ... They had lived. I think 19 and 13, I mean 19 and , what did I say, 19 and 8.
John Sullivan:	Something like that.
Mary Sullivan:	Well, when you moved here, the house was five or six years old, wasn't it? I think that's what it was. The man who built the house had lived in it, then they moved. I can't even remember the man.
John Sullivan:	I can't either.
Mary Sullivan:	And I don't even remember ... We've got the deed and all of what they paid for it. I don't know. It was $5000 or something. It seemed like. It may have been more than that, but I'm not sure. It wasn't a large amount. But it was a large amount at that time because they paid it on a monthly installment.
Interviewer:	Thinking about the community over the years, can you tell me about the makeup in terms of ethnic diversity, and working class, blue-collar, white-collar. I know you said there were a lot of railroad workers.
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, when they all moved out, most of the people moved in were ... We had a policeman who moved in across the street. He stayed there for quite some time. And then they moved I guess. He later died. I think maybe ... I believe he was ill. But most of that. And then after that, the change, then younger people came in. And now, all of our people are professional people. There's lawyers, all of them, lawyers or something. Now the girls who just bought the house down there, they both are with ... Who are they with?
John Sullivan:	Congress.
Mary Sullivan:	No, they're with the ..., I forget, with, with the museum or something. Most of them. Now the two girls - one has just left to go to Japan. She's in the Navy. She's a lawyer. She's left to go to Japan. In fact they just moved her furniture yesterday. (inaudible) The other couple, he was with the State Department and they've gone to Africa for three years. The girl that's in the big house there, she works over on Capitol Hill. Her husband is on ... with ... one of the TV stations. Which one is it?
John Sullivan:	Rod.
Mary Sullivan:	Rod. And then the other girl is (sic) rental. Now the girl across the street here is a nurse but I don't know anything about her. She's been there for about a year. We never see her. We speak to her and all that. And then the other couple, he works on Capitol Hill, next door to that. And I think the couple in the end house teaches school. I'm not sure. We have had several parties, Christmas parties and invited, but they don't come. So we don't, ...
Interviewer:	When your children were small, were there lots of different religions, and ethnic groups represented in this area?
Mary Sullivan:	No. We had never had any black in our neighborhood. We never had any Hispanics, or any. Now we had one black family. No, we had two families. We had a ... well, he was black; she was white, German girl. We had two. The little brick house and the house next door. And then we had one family that lived next door. They didn't stay very long. They were very, very nice. All of them were very, very nice. There was nothing you could say against them. But they did not stay very long. They left. But most of the people were steady people, you know, had lived here for years and years. And some of their children stayed on maybe a few years after their parents passed away, or they came back to live in the house. And then they were all sold. So most of them now is all professional people. All of them. All of them work, except us. On this street, most all of them work.
John Sullivan:	We're finished working.

Home Life
Interviewer:	Let me move into a different area. Just thinking about everyday life, what can you say about living in this house, food that you prepared, and things like that? Cleaning and laundry?
Mary Sullivan:	I did a lot of canning. I did a lot of (inaudible).
Interviewer:	Have you always done ...?
Mary Sullivan:	I've always done. I don't know about my children.
Interviewer:	Canning.
Mary Sullivan:	My daughter doesn't do any of it. They don't. I don't know why, but .... I made at least eighteen quarts of tomato juice this year. I've canned about eighteen quarts of peaches. I didn't can any beans. First time in years and years and years, that I didn't can beans. Because we always have our own garden. Plenty of tomatoes. Plenty of okra, squash, zucchini, acorn squash. We've got a small place but we raised a lot of stuff. We always had a lot of Christmas parties. Our Sunday School class, meetings and all. Our house has been open to people. And Greg always had a lot of friends. They always felt free to come in. Same with Mary Elizabeth. We've always enjoyed our home. And, as I said, it's old, but Greg said, "Mom, there's a lot of love in that house."
Interviewer:	So what kind of things did you cook for your children?
Mary Sullivan:	Vegetables, cornbread, rolls. I make rolls. And my grandchildren come. The other week they were up. They did not stay with us, because they said, "Mom it's too much." They wanted to stay at Crystal City, because they wanted to go shopping. One is 20 and one is 17. So they were getting ready to buy school clothes and everything. They wanted to stay over at Crystal City. And their father stayed over there. But they came over to eat. That morning Greg said, "Mom, we'll be about 8:30." Matthew spoke up and said, "Meema, make me biscuits and gravy. I don't want anything but biscuits and gravy." And I said, "Matthew, I don't think I've got any." And he said, "If you've got any hash browns I'll take those too." And I thought, "What in the world can I do to make gravy?" I can make biscuits all right. So anyway, I had some turkey gravy soup mixture, so I took that. And then I had some beef broth frozen, so I added some of that made him some gravy. Made him biscuits. Then I fixed scrambled eggs and made waffles and sausage for the rest of them. We always, my children, always loved vegetables. I trained them to eat vegetables, cornbread. When they come, my grandchildren come, they'll say, "Meema, now make rolls, and make macaroni and cheese." One wants macaroni and cheese, the other says, "Make rolls." So I always see that I have rolls.
Interviewer:	You make everybody happy!
Mary Sullivan:	I make everybody happy. Yesterday, I baked two pound cakes for our bake sale today, for the (inaudible). And I bake Christmas ... I bake a pie, about five pound cakes, for different friends when they want pound cakes. So I'll bake those. I've just always baked apple pies. And I distribute pies and rolls to my neighbors. Tomatoes this year. We had an abundant crop of tomatoes. And I think I've given about thirty people, different families, tomatoes this year. And I have okra, but so many people don't know what okra is and don't like it. There's two families that do like it. So, I take one to the beauty shop. The girl that does my hair, she likes it. And then we have a friend in Arlington who likes okra so they come and get it. I share what I have.
Interviewer:	And John, do you remember when they paved the roads, the roads, finally. How long? When did that finally happen?
John Sullivan:	It was a rough road. Gravel. I would say ... What do you think?
Mary Sullivan:	I don't know.
John Sullivan:	I would say middle '30's.
Interviewer:	What about things like electricity, and the plumbing, and ...?
John Sullivan:	Oh that's been there quite a while.
Mary Sullivan:	As far as I know, they had electricity here all the time.
John Sullivan:	Oh yes.
Mary Sullivan:	They did not have indoor plumbing.
John Sullivan:	No
Mary Sullivan:	... here because our bathroom upstairs was a big closet. And that was made into a bathroom. I don't know when that happened.
Interviewer:	It happened before you ...
Mary Sullivan:	We still have the old claw foot tub, and everybody comes in. The plumbers would come in. "You ever want to get rid of that tub, let me know."
Interviewer:	"Let me know. I'll take it off your hands."
Mary Sullivan:	So we still have that.
Interviewer:	So, at some point, you got indoor plumbing?
John Sullivan:	Yes, oh yes.
Mary Sullivan:	Of course, the basement was built after this house was built too.
Interviewer:	Oh, it was?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, both houses, the basement was dug after - for furnace heat. We used coal at first here. I can even remember when we had a coal furnace.
Interviewer:	And for cooking?
Mary Sullivan:	I've always had gas.

Advantages of the Neighborhood
Interviewer:	We'll start to wrap up but I want to give you each an opportunity to give me an idea of what you've enjoyed about living in the Alexandria area.
Mary Sullivan:	Oh, I've enjoyed, the social part to it, the educational part to it. It's been ... And the neighborhood. We've always had wonderful neighbors. We've always had real nice neighbors, and we've always gotten along. Everybody. We've never had any conflict in our neighborhood that I know of. As I said, a lot of people have come and gone. And children. The family next door ... there was what? Six or seven children at one time there. And for the longest time, they would come back and visit with us. They've all grown and got their own families. We don't see them too much. One of the girls who lived across the alley, she and her husband came back here couple weeks ago to visit with us. And they've been gone quite some time. And they came back. So we see, you know, we see every once in a while. And of course, as I said, many of the older people on this street passed away. We have a lot of opportunities here. And we had a good school system. We participated in PTA's, you know, and just different activities that come along. We've always participated. I've done a lot of knitting. I knit a lot of caps for the premature babies at Alexandria Hospital, caps. And I have sent knitted robes, lap robes to the Christian Appalachian places. I've taken them to nursing homes. Anything that I can be of service to I try.
Interviewer:	And John, anything you can say about growing up in Alexandria and living here your whole life?
John Sullivan:	One thing you can say is that we're close to everything. Close to Washington. Close to school. As Mary says, the neighbors have all been good. And we've had no problems.
Mary Sullivan:	(inaudible) and you were good friends. Good friends on the next street, block down.
John Sullivan:	Good friends. Even right now we have good friends now. The guy next door is a very good (one). He works on watches and stuff like that. Nice family. Everybody around here is quiet. So everything gets along fine. No problem.
Mary Sullivan:	The people that used to live next door, the boy, the man, ...
John Sullivan:	(inaudible)?
Mary Sullivan:	No, Tommy, I mean, Richard.
John Sullivan:	Oh, yes.
Mary Sullivan:	Richard. The oldest daughter is dead. The second girl's husband has passed away. And the son, which (sic) was the youngest, he is... I talked to him the other night. In fact, when Anna May down here was getting rid of her home, she had a lot of pictures. She was a great picture taker and she had a lot of pictures of these children here next door. And she wanted him to have them, or somebody, you know. So they gave them to me to send to Richard, because I knew him. We kept in touch with him. So I mailed them to him. So he called me. Well, I called him to tell him I was going to mail him the pictures. And he's in very bad health. He said, "I don't see. I can't drive. I'm just ..." He's younger, far younger than we are. It's just people like that passed away. And the girl who has lived in the house next door, she's in the nursing home, doesn't know day from night. It's sad. When I think back on the people that ... Time takes its toll.
Interviewer:	I appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.
John Sullivan:	I hope (inaudible) something anyway.
Interviewer:	Thank you. I hope that, you know, if there's (sic) more questions, that you'd be willing to have us come over again.
John Sullivan:	Sure, we'll let you know.
Interviewer:	Anyone else who's interested. We'd love to hear it. We love to preserve the history and the memories while we can. Thank you very much.

School Integration
Mary Sullivan:	The high school up here now is a middle school. That was done away with. As I said, our son played football and basketball. I guess he played on about the last team where the integration had started at that time, when he finished. And he played on the team, I guess, about the last two years that he played was when the integration came into the schools. But before that it had been separate schools.
Interviewer:	And do you remember the environment at that time?
Mary Sullivan:	They got along real good together. On the football team; I mean on the basketball team. The boys were just as nice as they could be. In fact, Teddy Lewis - Greg kept in touch with him for a long time. And then one of the boys that played on the team went down to South Carolina to the college where I finished at on a scholarship there. They were all very nice. There was no, you know, no problem. The children had a dress code more or less. They did not wear dungarees. They dressed very conservative (sic). It was a very good, strict and all. But they had no problems whatsoever.
Interviewer:	Was the community's response to the integration difficult at all?
Mary Sullivan:	Yes, it was. A lot of people did resent it. There really wasn't a great amount of trouble. But just a lot of people withdrew their children and sent them to private school, I think, at the beginning. Our children were out by that time so we weren't involved with that. No, there's no problem with that. In fact, I think Greg, the last year, had a black teacher which he, I can't even remember, I think he liked the teacher very, very much. We had no resentment to them whatsoever. I had no resentment to them because I was reared with them all my life.
Interviewer:	Well, I'm glad you were able to mention that. I hadn't thought to ask about that. So that's great.
Mary Sullivan:	We had one black couple lived next door. She was a nurse at Jefferson Hospital and he was with Metro. And they were just as nice as they could be. They were just very .... And, as I said, across the street, there was this black and white. But other than that, that's the only families we've ever had in our neighborhood that's been a mix. Nobody resented them. We all got along with them fine.
John Sullivan:	No problem.
Mary Sullivan:	One of the girls, well, I guess both of them, ran a boutique shop up on 23rd St. One had three children - just as cute children as they could be. She was killed. He shot her in the head. That was a real sad thing.
Interviewer:	But this was just in your neighborhood?
Mary Sullivan:	Right across the street. In the big house.
Interviewer:	What year was that? Do you remember?
John Sullivan:	No. Quite a while.
Mary Sullivan:	It's been over twenty five years.
Interviewer:	That must have been a big shock to the community.
Mary Sullivan:	It was. Because, well, they were just as nice, got along. We didn't know anything at all. We had been to church on a Wednesday night. We came home about 8:30. We always had church on Wednesday night. Came home and all the police were in the street. "What in the world is happening?" Someone told us what had happened. Of course, he served term at Lorton. When he got out, he came back to see us several times.
Interviewer:	So did they say what ...
Mary Sullivan:	He said it was just an accident, but I don't know. Nobody really knows.
Interviewer:	And she was killed.
Mary Sullivan:	She was killed. She died (inaudible). She was just as cute as she could be. She was German, just as cute, little tiny thing, just as cute as she could be. And her sister lived next door.
Interviewer:	What was the family name?
Mary Sullivan:	Morrison. Jacksons was the other. Morrison was the one that had the accident. Jacksons were the other family. They stayed there quite a while. And he retired. He was in the army. He retired and they went to Florida. So that's the only thing in our neighborhood that I ever happened that caused a sensation. Other than that, we've had .... And there used to be a little grocery store right up here on the corner. It was Block's Store. And when our children would wake up, Mary Elizabeth especially, would get up in the afternoon, the first thing she thought of was to go to the store and get her a Popsicle. Of course, all the kids would go. She'd go there to get her a Popsicle every afternoon. Then you could let them walk out and you weren't afraid to let them go.
Interviewer:	Right, it wasn't very far.
Mary Sullivan:	There wasn't any crime, or ....
Interviewer:	So she'd ask for, how much money?
Mary Sullivan:	Five cents.
Interviewer:	Five cents to go get a Popsicle.
Mary Sullivan:	Anything that you really ran out of, milk, or bread, you could go there.
Interviewer:	That's convenient.
Mary Sullivan:	There was another one down on (inaudible) Avenue on the corner too. They used to deliver groceries. You could call them and give your order, leave your back door, and they'd bring your [order] and put it on your kitchen table for you. That was long ago, before the .... And Foodtown was our first big grocery store that came around Mt. Vernon Ave, where the laundry is now. Foodtown was the first one that came there. And Acme was up on, off of Glebe Rd. And we were in Acme that afternoon, shopping, when we heard Kennedy was shot. I remember that very well.
Interviewer:	So you just shopping, right, when you heard?
Mary Sullivan:	I had gotten out of school and you met me, or you picked me up. And we went grocery shopping. We went up to Acme. And we were in the store when we heard that Kennedy had been shot dead. They announced over the speaker in the store. And then I came home. You went to work that afternoon. And I went out to ... on Duke St. was a strip mall out there - Woolworth store. It was November and I was getting ready to bake fruitcakes. And I always went out to Woolworth's to get my fruit cake mix because they always carried the mixed fruit -cherries, nuts. And so Greg, our son - I picked him up at school. He was in seventh grade then. I remember that. Mrs. Taylor, his teacher, told them about it. So I picked him up at school. You had gone to work at three o'clock. And I picked him up and I was going on out to the store to get my stuff for my fruitcake. And when I was going out Sunset Dr. this taxi driver pulled up beside me, and he was screaming. He was screaming. And I thought, "Jesus (inaudible)" He said, "He's dead. He's dead. He's dead", you know, about Kennedy. And Greg said, "Mom, get away from here quick." Because it was actually frightening.
Interviewer:	Had you already heard that he was dead?
Mary Sullivan:	Oh yes, I knew it, knew that he was dead.
Interviewer:	So you were hearing, you were watching someone else finding out for the first time.
Mary Sullivan:	He was just saying, "He's dead." He was just screaming. "He's dead. He's dead."
John Sullivan:	All set?
Interviewer:	Yes, I think we are all set. Thank you very much. Camera man: Everybody wave and say "Goodbye". All: Goodbye.
Mary Sullivan:	I hope this has been helpful.
Interviewer:	It has. You guys are full of information. It was fascinating.